All of Grace
An examination of operation
Hey Jude, I wanted to provide you with a personal response to your post. Which contains by necessity a brief exegesis of Romans 9. I hope you will read my response fully and honestly, I submit this to you respectfully as my brother, and out of a sincere desire to see God glorified, as he ought to be glorified throughout the body and bride of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have rendered your words in a gray font, in order to be more easily distinguished from my own which are in black. All scripture quotations are given in italics, as well as some words and phrases within the main body of text that I want to emphasize.
“Alright, I like to clear some things up. I don’t think the question here is: CAN God dictate the decisions of his creation? The answer is, He most certainly can, and has at times as we can see in scripture. The issue here is: how does God usually operate?”
It eases my heart to hear you affirm this, and I’m glad that you see the times he does actively intervene and cause things to come about in Scripture.
As you say, “The issue here is: how does God usually operate?”
My goal in this letter is to identify just that, how God usually or normally operates, as well as provide a Scriptural and brotherly response to the claims in your post.
“I often hear Calvinists quote, “God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy”. Never mind that that is part of a discussion explaining God’s selection of a lineage for Christ, but of course God will have mercy on whom he wills.”
You say, “Never mind that that [When Paul says, “God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy,” in Romans 9:15] is part of a discussion explaining God’s selection of a lineage for Christ.”
My understanding of your position is that you believe that God will absolutely have mercy on whom he will have mercy in regards to his choice of Israel as being the nation through whom comes the Messiah.
Where I think you are in error is that you presuppose that this is, as you say, merely “part of a discussion explaining God’s selection of a lineage for Christ.”
I want to state and affirm that that is not the case. Paul is not merely talking about nations, and national privilege, and groups, rather than individuals and salvation and use of those individuals.
Paul, writing to the Christians in Rome, has just finished stating in chapter 8 that God’s promise is not slack, and he will not forget his people, or let them go. He’s been talking about Life in the Spirit, and how there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, in vv 1-11. Then in vv 12-17, he speaks about how we are heirs with Christ, and about we’ve been adopted as sons, and therefore are fellow heirs with Christ. In vv 18-30 Paul address future glory and works his argument up into vv 28-30 in what has been aptly called the Golden Chain of Redemption, because the language acts like a chain, linking the verbs together to create full idea, where the last verb, is linked to the action of the first verb.
This is what is important about Chapter 9 and how I can say that Paul is not merely talking about nations, and privilege, because in chapter 9, Paul answers an objection he foresees will be raised in response to what he is saying in the end of chapter 8.
Paul says,
“And we know that for those that love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
I perceive that your objection here could be that “Ah yes! Things work together for the good of those… who love God! Therefore a person must love God before things work together for his good.”
But I counter object in that Paul tells us who those are that love God, it is “those who arecalled according to his purpose.”
Also, the idea that a person loves God before he works things together is contrary to the direct idea found in Scripture.
1 John 4:10. “In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
And in v19,
“We love because he first loved us.”
Romans 3:10 says,
“no one seeks for God.”
While Jesus says in John 6:44,
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…”
So I think that even with a brief look at Scripture, we see clearly that God always acts first in regards to Salvation, a claim I believe you would agree with, as an evangelical protestant. The question of course is, does he act the same way to all men? Does God draw all men in the same way, thus leaving their eternal location up to their choice, a choice which all men have the ability to make, by nature of the fact that they are human?
Ask Jesus, what does he do with the one who the father draws to him?
“And I will raise him up on the last day.”
If Jesus raises up on the last day, those who come to him by the Father’s drawing, then not everyone is drawn to Jesus by the Father, because as we know (seeing as you and I both as well as the Bible deny universalism), not all will be raised up by Jesus on the last day.
Also consider,
(John 6:37-39) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
This question I will answer further as my response progresses, so lets continue examining Paul’s argument.
He continues to explain this chain of redemption, saying that those whom he foreknew, he also predestined, called, justified and glorified, linking each new verb in the chain to the link prior to it in order to demonstrate that those who God foreknows, he also glorifies.
If you object to this by saying that God’s foreknowledge is just a passive looking into the future to see who will believe in him, so then he predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies, based off of what he sees about who has faith in the future, I assert that you are wrong and need to examine the use of the word foreknow in scripture. When it is used it is always in reference to persons, not to actions those persons do. I agree that God in his omniscience, knows all the actions of man, and while that is true, it doesn’t answer our question, it doesn’t tell us how God knows their actions. The Scriptures do tell us how. God foreknows them, not merely their actions. This word foreknow is also an active verb, It is something God does to a person.
To properly demonstrate this, I want to briefly discuss the word and it’s morphology, which I’ve included in a table.
Προέγνω (proegnō) from the word προγινώσκω (proginóskó)
Proginóskó is the same word we get our English word, ‘prognosis’, and it means ‘to know before hand’
The morphology of Προέγνω (proegnō.)
The word found here (proegnō) in verse 29 is, first of all a verb, and it is in the Aorist Tense, Active Voice, Indicative Mood and it is third person singular.
In Greek when the Aorist tense is in the Indicative Mood, it refers most often to a past, completed action.
The Active Voice declares that it is something the subject performs or experiences.
In the case of Romans 8:29, It is an action that God completes in the past and actively performs on the passive recipient which is the “those.” Or “Whom” in the second word of v 29.
Also, If God acts based off of the things he passively sees in the future, then God is nothing more that the Great Responder, men and women elect themselves, and God is just a bystander who responds to them. No matter what the Open Theists say, the God of Scripture is not malleable, and does not change based on his finite and fallible creature’s actions. A topic for another essay.
Continue to notice that this is something that God is doing to individuals, nations and privileges of nations are not what is in view here, but individuals.
Chapter 8 concludes by Paul bringing this part of the argument together and writing,
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:31-39)
Listen to him! He saying God will not forsake his elect, nothing can separate them from God. Paul anticipating an objection, denies what he anticipates in Chapter 9, starting in verse 6.
What he anticipates, is that the believers he is writing to will say,
“Paul, your saying all this stuff about “suffering, not being worth comparison to the glory to be revealed,” and “the spirit helping in our weakness” and “all things working together for the good of those called according to God’s purpose,” “no one being able to bring a charge against God’s elect,” but obviously, the word of God has failed! Because look at yourself Paul, you’re a Jew, a part of God’s chosen people, and the majority of your people deny Jesus as the promised Messiah, things are not working together for their good, and we the church can and are bringing a valid charge against them, has not the word of God failed?”
Paul denies the objection after noting the sincere love he has for his countrymen, from whom the Christ came through (Just because he mentions this here, does not make it the subject of this Chapter. He is giving reasons for the great love he has for his people), and after noting that indeed many of the Israelites are unbelievers, by saying in v6 of chapter 9 “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.”
The anticipated objection is, “Look at the Jews, surely the word of God has failed!” Paul answers and says, “No, not so.” And explains why.
He says there are two Israels, the nation, and the spiritual nation within the nation.
Again I assert, that what is in view here is not nations, or national privilege or just a “discussion explaining God’s selection of a lineage for Christ.” This is an examination of the true Israel, of the true descendents of Abraham, how the true descendents of Abraham arethe children of God, and how they come to be true Israelites, and children of God. We know from Galatians 3:7-9 that Believers are also sons of Abraham, and a part of the true Israel, in their inclusion by adoption. Also, Romans 4:13-25 tells us that the true Israelites were believers. Paul tells us here that the children of God are the children of promise.
“and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” (9:7-8)(emphasis mine)
How can this be about nations, and national privilege or just a “discussion explaining God’s selection of a lineage for Christ,” when he is talking about being children of God and talking about individuals, and giving examples of individuals, multiple individuals, and individuals who are not the Christ?
God can do whatever he wants, He’s GOD. Proof texts like the one above are thrown around as though they mean there is some arbitrary mysterious secret about who God will save, but we need not tarry long in the scripture before we see that God has revealed his will quite clearly regarding the area. Of course God will choose/elect his Church, but he explains from the front to the back of the book, how and why:
The truth is, I agree with what you wrote here, save one word, but as you know, you asserted it on different presuppositions than I would. You are absolutely right, “we need not tarry long in the scripture before we see that God has revealed his will quite clearly regarding the area.”
There is absolute mystery about who God saves. He and he only knows who are his. I fully affirm that there is no arbitrary or mysterious secret about the nature of how God saves.
You say “Of course God will choose/elect his Church.” I must ask, “If God chooses and elects his church, but not the individuals that make up the church, how can we affirm that there will ever be a church, if the presence of the church is based off of the wills of the people, and whether or not they want to be a part of the church? How can God elect the Church if he doesn’t elect what makes up the church?”
But these questions need not even be speculated upon, because the apostle tells us affirmatively that God does elect the individuals within the church.
It is the children of promise that are counted as offspring of Abraham.
Giving an example of the original children of the promise, Paul says,
“though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”” (v11-13)
Could the testimony be anymore clear? “Though they were not yet born and had donenothing either good or bad. In order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls.”
Will you raise the objection that the apostle denies in vv14-23?
Will you say, “Oh that’s fine, God is allowed to do that with Jacob and Esau, and not be cruel or the creator of evil, but if he does that with me, then he is unholy and unrighteous?”
Will you ask, “How can he find fault and condemn them for something that he did not allow them to believe?”
(Romans 9:19-23) “You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory”
How can this be about nations and privilege, when the apostle applies it to individuals, and distinguishes between individuals and the nations they belong to in the very next verse?
“even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (v24)
“Even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only, but also from the gentiles.”
Jude, you spoke rightly in saying “we need not tarry long in the scripture before we see that God has revealed his will quite clearly regarding the area.”
What saith the Scriptures? Is this simply a “discussion explaining God’s selection of a lineage for Christ?” or is this a dissertation on God’s sovereign choice of the children of promise, which as we saw, includes those who are his from the gentiles, as well as a dissertation of God’s sovereign choice of even Pharaoh and his purpose for raising him up? As protestant evangelicals, we believe that Scripture interprets Scripture, and there is no error or contradiction in its pages. In light of that, how does what we’ve examined in Romans 9 shed light on such passages as the following?
Proverbs 16:4. “The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”
John 13:18. “I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.”
John 17:12. “While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”
1 Peter 2:7-8. “So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.”
Jude 4. “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”
Consider also what Paul says when he addresses the saints in Ephesus,
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
(Ephesians 1:3-6) (Emphasis mine)
“The issue here is: how does God usually operate?” I assert that the manner found here in Ephesians 1 and in Romans 9 is God’s manner of operation at all times. God has always operated like this, through out the testimony of Scripture.
Examine briefly if you will, Joseph’s recollection (Genesis 45:5, 8; Genesis 50:20) God’s examination of Pharaoh, before Moses ever goes to him (Exodus 4:21), The inhabitance of Gibeon (Joshua 11:20), The account of Satan’s attacks on Job, yet when Job examines all he has lost, he says “The Lord gives and the Lord has taken away.” Not “The lord gives and Satan takes away.” (Job 1:21), testimony of proverbs 16, The wicked king of Assyria (Isaiah Chapter 10), the creation of calamity (Isaiah 45:7, and the rest of 45 for that matter), the testimony in Ezekiel 36:22-36, John 6, John 8, John 10 (Specifically v26, Jesus says “But you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.” He does NOT say, “You are not a part of my flock because you do not believe.”
These are but brief snippets that I’ve selected in an attempt to demonstrate to you that God has always had complete control of his creation, and has always decided what will happen, and nothing has ever happened apart from God causing or allowing it, but even the things he allows are a part of his decree, and this is true across the testaments.
“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitance of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?””(Daniel 4:35)
I want to also examine your use of Romans 2:5-11, which I perceive you give as evidence for your statements above, and as ultimate evidence that God brings men to eternal life not upon his choice, but upon theirs.
Romans 2
"5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."
This passage in no way, and no other passage in the Bible, disagrees with or contradicts the view, that God ordains all that comes to pass, or that he graciously intervenes in the lives of a great many undeserving sinners, changes their nature so that they no longer hate him, but rather love him, and puts his Spirit within them and causes them to walk in his statutes, glorifying himself in the demonstration of his mercy. And thereby leaves some in their sin, giving them justice for their sins, and glorifying himself in the demonstration of his wrath on those who hate him.
"5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds”
Man by his nature has a hard and impenitent heart.
(Jeremiah 17:9) “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
(Romans 3:10-11)“as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.””
Man is dead in his trespasses and sins,
(Ephesians 2:1-3) “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind” (Emphasis mine)
and he is no more able to bring himself to Jesus than George Washington is able to raise his bones from the grave and bring himself to a hospital, or Lazarus was able to raise himself from his grave. (If were not for the personal, powerful word of our Lord, directed specifically at Lazarus, he would have stayed right where he was.) It is their, natural mans,desire to do evil, which is what the preceding verses are all about!
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,” (Romans 1:18-24 emphasis mine)
Romans 8:7-8 tells us the same thing.
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (emphasis mine)
This is not speaking of someone who has by their own will set their mind on evil things. Rather this is someone who has their life after the order of the flesh (Look again at Ephesians 2:1-3), not the Spirit. That it why it says they cannot please God, it is not within their ability to please God, by action, faith, repentance, or by any other means.
Also, as you must affirm, Christians are saved by the grace of God, not by their works. The way you quote this, you seem to be trying to say that man gets salvation by working good.
Yet again Ill show you,
“All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”(Romans 3:12)
Rather, we know that those who are saved will do good works, like seeking for glory and honour and immortality in patient continuance in well doing and working good. They will do good works because they’ve been created by God for good works which he prepared beforehand that they should walk in.
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”(Ephesians 2:10)
Doing good works and persevering is evidence of the fact that person is truly in Christ. That is why Jesus said in Matthew 7 that you will know them by their fruits. The bearers of bad fruit will be cut down, because the tree is bad, while the bearers of good fruit will not be cut down, because the tree is good.
This is also what the writer of Hebrews affirms in Hebrews 3:14,
“For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”
Holding firm to your original confidence, i.e. persevering in your faith is evidence of the fact that you truly came to share in Christ.
He does NOT say, “For we will come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”
He said we have come (in the past) to share in Christ, if indeed we hold (now) our original confidence firm to the end (now and until we’re brought home).
All this to say that yes, God will render to each one according to his deeds, because each ones deeds are evidence of each ones nature. But thanks be to God that the nature of the believer is changed, which is why he is able to believe. And that God will deal with us not in light of our wicked deeds but rather in light of Jesus’ Righteousness imputed to us.
“Blessed is the man against whom the Lord does not count his sin.” (Romans 4:6)
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."
And this is true, whether or not you are Jew or Gentile. He says, God works with individuals all the same, regardless of your nation. Therefore God does not base his actions on things like blood found in the person, but rather on the council of his Holy will. Then he qualifies what he is saying by adding “For there is no respect of persons with God.”
God will act this way with Jews and Greeks alike, because he is not partial to the nation itself, he is not a respecter of persons, you are not any better or worse in Gods eyes because of what nation you came from, what blood you have, or because your nose is prettier than mine. That is what the apostle is saying.
See also Ezekiel 18, Ezekiel 33, Revelation 20, and Revelation 22. I wish that I could go through the entire bible and cite every scripture in which God gives a choice and states the consequences for both compliance and defiance, but I don’t have the time right now.
When God establishes a covenant with his people, he establishes stipulations of that covenant, which if kept, reap blessings, and if are not, reap punishment. God has required the same things from all men because he is Holy and must be worshiped, even the Canaanites and all the others in the land even though he never made a covenant with them.
God has through the law, and the requirements of his commands shown us that man is completely and utterly dependent on God. The thing is that NO ONE is capable of keeping the good things you quoted in Romans 2, and we know that “by deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Also, Galations 2:21 says, “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.” Jude, I have not always been a worker of good and still now as a believer, I often work out of selfishness, and speak out of hubris or act or think in anger. I am thankful that Christ’s righteousness and deeds are applied to my account, and I will not be rendered to according to my actual deeds, which were repugnant and as filthy rags, these wicked deeds of mine Jesus bore in his body on the tree and shed his blood over. It is impossible for men to keep the smallest part of the law, that is why salvation is and must be none, absolutely none, of me and all, absolutely all, of grace.
To the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ.
I hope you found this response meaningful, insightful, and in the spirit of “Come, let us reason together.” God’s Blessings to you, may our eyes and ears be opened that we may see and behold marvelous truths from God’s law.
For God’s Glory,
Matthew
